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Title: Regarding misconduct of members during Prime Minister’s speech in the House.
Before we take up today’s business in the House, I wish to refer with great sorrow and concern to what happened yesterday in this Chamber, which we call the Temple of Democracy. Some Members indulged in such unbecoming conduct that the questions are being rightly asked whether we are doing justice to our role of representing the people. It is a matter of deep anguish that such doubts are raised on the eve of our celebrating the 60th anniversary of our Independence for which thousands and thousands of our countrymen made supreme sacrifices.
Are we showing any respect to them and to our freedom fighters by what happened yesterday and on all such occasions?
… (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: As such I am extremely sorry that we witnessed extremely uproarious scenes when the country’s Prime Minister was speaking and that can never be condoned.
… (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Kindly listen. I am including what happened today also.
… (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: I am including what happened today also.
I have repeatedly asserted that subject to the constraint of the rules and the availability of time, the House shall certainly discuss all important issues which the Members wish to raise. The Members are certainly entitled to express their strong views in any matter they wish, but such expression of views has to be in a manner as are permitted by the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business in the House. That should of course be in a dignified manner and that there should be structured debates and discussions as are permitted. There can be no hindrance in debating all permissible issues and expression of one’s views in any matter, but unfortunately, there is a continuous violation of the rules and defiance of the Chair, which cannot be permitted for ever.
The people are closely watching us and they will, no doubt, give their verdict at the appropriate time. But till then, I wish to inform the hon. Members that in future all methods as are provided in our rules will be applied to enforce minimum discipline in the House, however painful that may be. We cannot further allow the prestige of this great institution to be lowered in the eyes of the citizens by our own people due to the totally inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour which is displayed in the House from time to time, including today.
… (Interruptions)
प्रो. विजय कुमार मल्होत्रा : कल जो कुछ भी हुआ है, उसके लिए कांग्रेस जिम्मेदार है…( व्यवधान)
MR. SPEAKER: I have said that it includes today also.
… (Interruptions)
(Q. 41)
DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : Sir, there are many unaided schools and colleges all over the country in various States. The students are deprived of education, even after 60 years of our Independence. … (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Do not record anything except what Dr. Sarma says.[MSOffice3]
DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : It is unfortunate that this Ministry which is committed for the establishment of education system in the country has not come up with any proposal to fund these unaided colleges.
11.36 hrs.
(Prof. Vijay Kumar Malhotra and some other
Hon’ble Members then left the House)
MR. SPEAKER: Dr. Sarma, put your supplementary.
DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : Sir, the reply of the hon. Minister is not satisfactory because they have only suggested that some of the colleges will be covered under the UGC funding. I apprehend that it would not even cover one per cent of the total unaided colleges and schools in the country. I would like to specifically know from the hon. Minister whether the Government will come up with a special programme to support the unaided colleges because the students are suffering and the standard of education is also suffering. There is a wide gap and discrimination between the aided and unaided colleges and schools.
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: Sir, even in the reply given to the hon. Member, it has been clearly stated that under Section 12(b) of the UGC Act, the aided or unaided institutions — barring self-financing institutions — would be eligible for financial assistance from the Central Government subject to availability of resources.
DR. ARUN KUMAR SARMA : My apprehension is that the UGC cannot cover even one per cent of the unaided institutions. Then, what will happen to other colleges and schools? That was the prime issue because these colleges, schools and the education system itself, all are suffering. The students are also suffering. So, what the Government is going to do?
Secondly, I want to know from the hon. Minister whether the Government has kept any record of these unaided schools, colleges and the various categories of schools and colleges. How many students are there which can be brought under this new proposal?
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: Sir, education being the State subject, the institutions and schools can be set up either through the Central or the State legislation. But such schools which are set up in the States are subjected to the purview of the State Legislature and the institutes and universities set up under the Central legislation are subjected to Central Government purview. Under this, definitely schools which are set up in the States are the responsibility of the States.… (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: When she is replying, you cannot interrupt.
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: Sir, according to the Sixth All India Education Survey and also the Seventh All India School Education Survey, the total number of schools would be around 2,17,653 in 2002. But presently there are about 1.45 lakh secondary and senior secondary schools in India, out of which 9000 schools are affiliated to CBSE. CBSE is the body which actually looks into the quality of schools which are recognized by the CBSE. In these schools we have about 40 million students which are presently covered under the CBSE stream. This is the record which the Central Government keeps. With regard to State schools, the records are with the State Governments.
श्री रेवती रमन सिंह : माननीय अध्यक्ष जी, माननीय मंत्री जी ने जो जवाब दिया है और जो सवाल माननीय सदस्य ने किया था, उसे देखते हुए, पूरा मामला जहां का तहां रह जाता है। आज हमारे देश में इतने विद्यालय हैं, जो कि अनएडिड हैं। उसका यह परिणाम है कि वहां पर टीचरों को आधी-अधूरी तनख्वाह दी जाती है और उससे क्वालिटी ऑफ एजुकेशन सफर करती है। माननीय मंत्री जी ने कहा है कि रिसोर्सेज़ का क्रंच है। अभी भारत सरकार ने एजुकेशनल सैस लगाया है। क्या मंत्री जी यह बताएंगी कि जो एजुकेशनल सैस लगाया है, उसका कितना भाग आपने हायर एजुकेशन पर एलाट किया है?
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: All schools established are affiliated to either the State Boards or to the Central Board. The CBSE, as I had mentioned earlier, is the competent authority to ensure standards in Central Board affiliated schools. In regard to schools affiliated to State Boards, I would again like to re-emphasize, that it is the responsibility of the State Governments to look into the quality, including teachers in the State Government schools. The State Governments are also competent to make appropriate regulations through law in respect of educational institutions independent of the Central Government.
As far as the question raised by the hon. Member with regard to teachers is concerned, I would again like to re-emphasize that it is the responsibility of the State Government to look into the matter to ensure that the required teachers are in place.
श्री सानछुमा खुंगुर बैसीमुथियारी : अध्यक्ष महोदय, आपने हमें क्वैश्चन पूछने के लिए बोला था। …( व्यवधान)
SHRI LALIT MOHAN SUKLABAIDYA : There are about 1600 high schools and a few thousands primary and middle schools in Assam. The teachers employed in these schools are doing the same kind of job as their counterparts in the Government schools are doing. A few thousand of such teachers employed in these schools are not getting their salaries. Even many of them are retiring without getting any salary after having rendered their services.
MR. SPEAKER: The same point is being raised.
SHRI LALIT MOHAN SUKLABAIDYA : One of the Members had raised the point that in some such schools the teachers are being paid half salaries. But our teachers are not getting any salary. During the last three years in my Budget speech I have been referring to the plight of these teachers. Now, I would like to request the Central Government to help the State Government with resources from the revenue that is being collected by way of educational cess for paying the salaries of the teachers. I would like to know if the Central Government will help the State Governments for paying the salaries of the teachers who are working without salary.
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: As I have mentioned earlier, the Kendriya Vidyalayas and the Navodaya Vidyalayas which are Central schools are basically the responsibility of the Central Government. We have been taking measures to ensure that the teachers are in place in these schools. With regard to the State Government schools, the responsibility is of the State Government.
Sir, answering the question on cess, basically it is meant for the Sarva Siksha Abhiyan and the Mid-day meal schools. Apart from this, there is one per cent additional cess being levied. This is towards secondary and higher education. But the two per cent cess is basically towards Mid-day meal and Sarva Siksha Abhiyan. Payment of salaries to teachers employed in State Government schools, again I would like to re-emphasize, is the responsibility of the State Governments.
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Ramdas Athawale. Your question has to be relevant, otherwise, I will not allow that.
श्री रामदास आठवले : अध्यक्ष महोदय, नॉन ऐडेड स्कूलों को परमीशन देना गलत बात है। इस तरह की परमीशन देने के बाद, जो गरीब और होशियार विद्यार्थी हैं, उन्हें डोनेशन देना पड़ता है। भारत सरकार को इस विषय में कानून बनाने की आवश्यकता है। नॉन ऐडेड स्कूल को परमीशन न देकर, हर स्कूल और कालेज को ऐड देने की आवश्यकता है। मेरा प्रश्न है कि क्या आप इस बारे में कोई निर्णय लेने वाले हैं?
महोदय, हमारे महाराष्ट्र में शिक्षा का प्राइवेटाइजेशन हो रहा है – चाहे एमबीबीएस कालेज हो, इंजीनियरिंग कालेज हो, एमबीए कालेज हो या दूसरे कालेजेज हों, उनमें 20 हजार, 30 हजार, 50 हजार, 1 लाख, 2 लाख से 30 लाख तक डोनेशन देना पड़ता है। शिक्षा का प्राइवेटाइजेशन रोकने के लिए क्या भारत सरकार कोई कानून बनाने वाली है? अगर ऐसा नहीं हुआ तो आगे चलकर स्थिति और भी खराब हो सकती है – यही मेरा आपके माध्यम से प्रश्न है।
अध्यक्ष महोदय : यह क्वैश्चन इसके साथ रिलेटिड नहीं है, यह पालिसी मैटर है।
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: In the school stream we have 97 million students in the age group of 14 to 18 years. Out of these 40 million students, as I have mentioned earlier, are in the school stream. There are about 57 million who are out of school. These are the children who are transiting into secondary and senior secondary schools. There is a pressure on secondary education and towards that end, in the Eleventh Five Year Plan we are trying to get through the Secondary Education Mission to ensure that the pressure on the secondary education is shouldered to a large extent. We are also trying to bring in a few more Kendriya Vidyalayas and Navodaya Vidyalayas to take the pressure off the secondary school education. [R4]
With regard to [MSOffice5] fees, there have been court interventions wherein it has been clearly emphasized and our National Programme on Education also clearly emphasizes that commercialization of education should be avoided.
SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY : Sir, I have been observing that the hon. Minister is talking about only Central schools and State Government run schools. Here, I would like to ask one very serious question that relates to the question of survival of the tribal medium schools. In Assam, there are several thousands of lower primary schools, middle schools and high schools with Bodo medium. These schools have not yet been taken up by the Assam Government under the system of provincialisation. In the meanwhile, some of the teachers working in this category of schools have died hopelessly and some of them also have already crossed their retiring age without having got any salary.
I would like to know from the Government on the policy measures which the Government of India is going to take to revive and help all those schools particularly lower primary schools, middle schools and high schools with Bodo medium. This is a very serious issue, Sir.
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: In the elementary stream of education, we have ensured that tribal languages are taught to children who are covered under the Sarva Sikhsha Abhiyan.
SHRI SANSUMA KHUNGGUR BWISWMUTHIARY : Sir, I would like to know about the policy decision of the government with regard to the non-provincialised schools with Bodom medium in reation to Assam state..… (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Do not record.
(Interruptions)* …
SHRIMATI D. PURANDESWARI: Sir, I would request the hon. Member to give a separate notice as his supplementary does not arise out of this Question.
MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member may give a separate notice on this as it does not arise out of this Question. Then I would allow you.
MR. SPEAKER: Q. No. 42, Shrimati Bhavana P. Gawali – not present. Shri Sanjay Dhotre – not present.
Q. No. 43, Shri G. Karunakara Reddy – not present.
Q. No. 44, Shri Suresh Prabhakar Prabhu – not present, Shri Jasubhai Dhanabhai Barad – not present.
Q. No. 45, Shri Kiren Rijiju – not present, Shri Anandrao V. Adsul – not present.
Q. No. 46, Shri Rayapati Sambasiva Rao.
* Not recorded
(Q. 46)
SHRI RAYAPATI SAMBASIVA RAO : Sir, hon. Minister has explained the matter in detail. But there is no denying of the fact that naxal activities are spreading like wild fire. It seems it has spread to over ten States. Huge sums of money are being spent on tackling naxal activities in these States instead of bringing about changes in the lives of the poor and needy.
Though the naxal movement originated in West Bengal, Andhra Pradesh has become the real hub. There is no stopping of the dreaded activities of naxals. The naxal activities have spread to 118 districts in twelve States. I am of the firm conviction that if we do not stop the naxal activities without further waste of precious time, our future generations would not forgive us.
Would the hon. Minister assure the august House on this matter? What measures has the Government of India initiated in the last two years to not only study and analyse but also stop the spreading of naxal activities in more districts in different parts of the country?
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: The statistics which is made available is creating a wrong impression in the minds of some of us over here.
It is said that ten States are affected by naxal activities. That means, one-third of the country is affected by them. Now, if an incident takes place at a place in a State, that does not mean that the entire State is affected by naxal activities. Then they are saying that 188 districts are affected. It means that one-third of the country is affected. This way of looking at the problem is not correct.
There are about 8000 police stations in the country. How many police stations in the country are affected by naxal activities? Only 400 police stations are affected by them in the country. That means only about five per cent of the area is affected by naxalite[MSOffice6] States.
So, if we look at this problem from the angle of the number of States affected or the number of districts affected, it creates a wrong picture. That is why we shall have to correctly assess the situation and come to right conclusions.
It is a fact that naxalite movement is a little more than what it was in the past. It is also adopting methods which are creating some fear in the minds of people. The Government of India is applying its mind to this problem.
This problem has to be handled by the State Governments. I have been saying that nearly 35,000 men and officers are given by the Union Government to the States which are affected by naxalite movement. Chhattisgarh receives nearly 13,000 men and officers to deal with this problem. Law and order is a State subject. It is a matter which has to be handled by the State Governments. We have been asking the State Governments to look into this matter, prepare plans and have the machinery to deal with this problem. The Government of India will help them. When we are giving these forces, we are not charging a single pie for this. Previously, we used to get money from them. But now we are not charging even a single pie. We are giving funds to the State Governments to modernise their police forces. We are giving equipments, like the USVs, that is Unmanned Survey Vehicles; we are giving them helicopters to carry the injured persons from the places where they are affected; we are giving them armoured vehicles; and we are giving them intelligence; and we are helping them in many ways.
Some States, like Andhra Pradesh, use these things properly. In Andhra Pradesh, the naxalite activity has come down by nearly forty per cent. But, unfortunately, in some other States the activity has gone up by forty per cent. If the States are particular about dealing with this problem and careful about making plans and policies, it can be done. The Government of India will help them to tackle this problem. We are applying our mind in a very serious manner in order to see that innocent people’s lives are not lost.
SHRI RAYAPATI SAMBASIVA RAO : The hon. Minister has agreed that in Andhra Pradesh, the naxalite activity has gone down by forty per cent. I really appreciate that. Our Chief Minister has actually called the senior leaders of the naxalite movement and had a detailed discussion with them. Two rounds of talks had taken place. They did agree to all the terms and conditions and went back. But after six months, again they started killing the people.
Our State Government is distributing land to the common people; to the weaker sections, to the tribals; and to the landless people. The Government is constructing houses also for each and every person who is entitled to these houses. Even then the naxalite movement is still going on in Andhra Pradesh. The State Government do not have the proper equipment and the machinery to deal with the naxalites. Naxalites have very sophisticated weapons, but the Andhra Pradesh police do not have such sophisticated weapons.
I would request the hon. Minister to give more sophisticated weapons to Andhra Pradesh police also.
MR. SPEAKER: Ask the State Government to approach them.
SHRI RAYAPATI SAMBASIVA RAO : Our Government is also approaching. The Chief Minister is approaching. Only because of that the naxalites have moved from Andhra Pradesh to Chhattisgarh.
SHRI SHIVRAJ V. PATIL: We have already given a lot of money to the State Governments to modernise their police force. We gave them not only money but also new and different kinds of equipments. What is really happening is that the naxalites are adopting military tactics to attack, whereas the police is sticking to the policing system. The police is finding it difficult to counter the attacks of the naxalites. But fortunately for Andhra Pradesh they have developed a training system under which it was possible for the police force to counter these kinds of attacks in a proper manner. What the hon. Member is suggesting has already been done. A lot of money has been given to them. Thousands of crores of rupees have been given to them.[MSOffice7]
If you want, I can give you the figures as to what amount of money has been given to each of the States to modernise their police forces. … (Interruptions)
MR. SPEAKER: Shri Uday Singh – not present.
श्री मोहन सिंह : अध्यक्ष महोदय, नक्सलवाद की समस्या से निपटने के लिए भारत सरकार की दो तरह की रणनीति थी – एक तो राज्यों के रक्षा-बलों का आधुनिकीकरण कराना, नक्सलवादी संगठनों की जो मिलिटरी टैक्टिक्स है, उसका मुकाबला करने में सक्षम बनाना और दूसरी रणनीति थी कि ऐसे पिछड़े हुए इलाकों में शिक्षा, संचार, सड़क और वहां के लोगों की आर्थिक स्थिति सुधारने के लिए रोजगार का इंतजाम करना। इसके लिए भारत सरकार ने अधिकांश ऐसे राज्यों को, जहां नक्सलवाद की समस्या है, आर्थिक सहायता देने का काम किया है। मैं माननीय मंत्री जी से जानना चाहता हूँ कि नक्सलवाद से लड़ने की जो दूसरी रणनीति है – सड़क, शिक्षा, स्कूल का निर्माण और अस्पताल का इंतजाम – उसके बारे में क्या भारत सरकार ने ऐसे राज्यों के साथ इसकी कोई समीक्षा की है कि उन इलाकों के विकास के लिए जो पैसा उनको दिया गया है, उसमें से कितनी धनराशि उन्होंने खर्च की है और विकास की दिशा में वे कितना आगे बढ़ सके हैं? क्या गृह मंत्रालय ने राज्यों के साथ इसकी कोई जिलेवार समीक्षा की है? यदि की है, तो उसके निष्कर्ष क्या हैं?
श्री शिवराज वि. पाटील : अध्यक्ष महोदय, यह बात बिल्कुल सही है कि नक्सलवाद की समस्या को हल करने कि लिए केवल बन्दूक और गोला का आसरा नहीं लिया जा सकता है, इस प्रश्न को हल करने के लिए आर्थिक विकास की ओर भी ध्यान देना जरूरी है और इसीलिए जो जिले बैकवर्ड माने गए हैं उनके विकास के लिए गृह मंत्रालय की ओर से हर साल 45 करोड़ रूपए दिए जाते हैं और यह धनराशि तीन साल तक दी जाती है। यह धनराशि, प्लानिंग कमीशन के माध्यम से जो धनराशि राज्य सरकारों को दी जाती है, उसके अलावा, उससे बढ़कर होती है। जहां तक इन 45 करोड़ रूपए का सवाल है, जो राज्य सरकारों को गृह मंत्रालय की ओर से इस काम के लिए दिए जाते हैं, उसके मालूमात लिए जाते हैं, उसके ऊपर चर्चा होती है और बराबर निगरानी रखी जाती है, मगर पूरी तरह से सड़क बनाना, इरीगेशन फैसिलिटी देना, हॉस्पिटल्स बनाना और कृषि के क्षेत्र में उत्कर्ष करने के लिए पैसा देने का काम प्लानिंग कमीशन की ओर से किया जाता है।
हर साल जब राज्य सरकार की ओर से प्लानिंग के तहत पैसे की मांग की जाती है, उस समय उसके बारे में चर्चा प्लानिंग मिनिस्ट्री में हुआ करती है। जो पैसा गृह मंत्रालय की ओर से दिया जाता है, उसकी समीक्षा गृह मंत्रालय करता है और जो पैसा विकास कार्यों के लिए प्लानिंग कमीशन की तरफ से दिया जाता है, उसकी समीक्षा उनकी तरफ से की जाती है।
श्री देवेन्द्र प्रसाद यादव : महोदय, माननीय मंत्री जी ने नक्सलवाद की समस्या के बारे में अभी-अभी कहा कि पिछड़े जिलों में 45 करोड़ रूपए अलग से दिए जाते हैं। मैं यह जानना चाहता हूं कि यह धनराशि, जो तीन साल के लिए दी जाती है, क्या वह पिछड़े जिलों में लागू राष्ट्रीय समविकास योजना से जुड़ी हुई है या अलग से आर्थिक विषमता को दूर करने के लिए उन जिलों को दी जाती है? यह समस्या बहुत बड़ी है और केवल अस्त्र-शस्त्रों को आधुनिक बनाने और राज्यों में केवल प्रशिक्षण के जरिए नक्सलवादी हिंसा और नक्सलवादी समस्या को दूर नहीं किया जा सकता, क्योंकि देश में इकोनोमिक डिसपैरिटी बढ़ती जा रही है। इस खाई को पाटने के लिए राज्य और केन्द्र सरकार को प्लानिंग कमीशन के साथ मिलकर संयुक्त प्रयास करने होंगे। मैं यह जानना चाहता हूँ कि क्या इसके लिए आपके पास कोई कार्ययोजना है? …( व्यवधान)
अध्यक्ष महोदय : समय कम है, कृपया मंत्री जी को रिप्लाई के लिए भी समय दीजिए।
श्री शिवराज वि. पाटील : अध्यक्ष महोदय, असल में इस समस्या को हल करने के लिए 45 करोड़ रूपए तीन साल के लिए नहीं दिए जाते हैं, बल्कि हर साल 45 करोड़ रूपए तीन साल तक दिए जाते हैं। इस तरह तीन वर्षों में करीब-करीब 150 करोड़ रूपए उन जिलों में विकास के लिए दिए जाते हैं।[R8]
[R9] यह पैसा इसलिए दिया जा रहा है ताकि वहां का पिछड़ापन दूर हो, वहां के लोगों को राहत मिले और वे काम करें। आपकी यह बात बिल्कुल सही है कि नक्सलवाद हमें ज्यादातर पिछड़े हिस्सों में ही पनपता नजर आता है। इसलिए उसे दूर करने के लिए उस इलाके में रास्ते, सड़कें, पीने के पानी और स्कूल आदि सुविधाओं का इंतजाम करने की दृष्टि से योजना आयोग द्वारा विचार करके पैसा दिया जाता है। मैं यह भी बताना चाहता हूं कि सिर्फ योजना आयोग में ही इस पर विचार नहीं होता, बल्कि राज्य सरकारों को बुलाकर उनके साथ भी विचार करके और सारे मालूमात करके एक एग्रीमेंट के तहत यह सब किया जाता है और किया जा रहा है। यह मामला ऐसा है, जैसा आपने कहा कि इसमें संयुक्त प्रयास होना चाहिए।
मैं कहना चाहता हूं कि होम मिनिस्टरी की तरफ से इसके लिए प्रयास हो रहा है और उसके तहत पैसा दिया जा रहा है। हम उस राशि को और बढ़ाने के बारे में भी विचार कर रहे हैं, जिससे वहां विकास के काम हो सकें। लेकिन सिर्फ होम मिनिस्टरी की तरफ से ही ये सारे काम नहीं हो सकते, इसमें योजना आयोग, वित्त मंत्रालय, कृषि मंत्रालय, सिंचाई विभाग आदि के संयुक्त प्रयासों से सरकार को यह काम करना है।
12.01 hrs.