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Lok Sabha Debates
Regarding Situation Arising Out Of Recent Massacre In Various Places … on 4 August, 2000

12.10 hrs.

Title: Regarding situation arising out of recent massacre in various places in Jammu and Kashmir and of Pilgrims at Pahalgam.

MR. SPEAKER: Now, statement by the hon. Prime Minister.

 

THE PRIME MINISTER (SHRI ATAL BIHARI VAJPAYEE): Sir, I visited Pahalgam and Srinagar on Thursday to study the situation arising out of recent massacre in various places in Jammu and Kashmir and of pilgrims at Pahalgam.

I am thankful to Shrimati Sonia Gandhi, Shri Somnath Chatterjee, Shri Mulayam Singh Yadav, Shri Yerrannaidu and Shri Ghulam Nabi Azad for agreeing to join me at such a short notice. My colleagues, Shri George Fernandes, Kumari Mamata Banerjee and Prof. Chaman Lal Gupta also joined me, along with the Chief of Army Staff. From Srinagar, the Governor, and the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir accompanied us.

Our visit was also intended to assure the people of the State that the entire nation stood by them at this hour, and to share their grief over the inhuman behaviour of the terrorists against innocent people belonging to the State as well as many from other parts of the country on pilgrimage to Amarnath.

The briefing which we were given by the Chief of Unified Command and Security Forces made it clear that perpetrators of these heinous crimes were foreigners. Arms and ammunitions recovered from them clearly established their links with Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Toiba.

Delegations of local population as well as pilgrims met me and spoke to me about the difficulties they were facing in the wake of the killings.

The House, I am sure, is one with me in assuring the people of Jammu and Kashmir and the nation that we will not yield before terrorism. I may add that while the fight against terrorism will be continued, India will not give up its efforts for restoration of peace in Kashmir.

I made it clear at Srinagar that the dialogue with Hizbul Mujahideen is a part of this effort. Other groups which have chosen the path of violence should also realise that the people of Jammu and Kashmir want peace in the State. It is futile for them to continue on the path of violence. They should come forward for talks with the Government for redressal of their grievances.

__________

MR. SPEAKER: The House will now take up ””Zero Hour””.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA (GUNA): Sir, we would like to have some clarifications on this. The Leader of the Opposition would like to say something.

SHRIMATI SONIA GANDHI (AMETHI): Can I say something, Sir?

MR. SPEAKER: There is no practice in the Lok Sabha.

… (Interruptions)

श्रीप्रकाश जायसवाल (कानपुर) : जो परिस्थितियां उत्पन्न हुई हैं, उसे किसी परम्परा से नहीं जोड़ा जाना चाहिए। …(व्यवधान)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA : But there has never been such a massacre; it is a tragedy of immense proportion. (Interruptions) It is a massacre of unprecedented proportion.… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You know very well that in the House, in the Lok Sabha, there is no such procedure.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Normally, we do not allow any clarifications on a statement in the Lok Sabha.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA : This is a tragedy of an immense proportion. It is unprecedented. … (Interruptions) इतिहास में ऐसा कभी नहीं हुआ, इसलिए यह स्वाभाविक है और यही प्रश्नचिन्ह है।…( व्यवधान) इतिहास में कभी इतनी क्रूर हत्या की बात नहीं हुई, जिसमें सौ से ज्यादा लोग मौत के घाट उतर जायें।…( व्यवधान)

MR. SPEAKER: As a special case, I am allowing the Leader of the Opposition.

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया : उनका खून इनके माथे पर है, क्योंकि लापरवाही तो हुई है।…( व्यवधान) इससे हिंसा बढ़ी है। वहां जो स्थिति उत्पन्न हुई है, उस बारे में यहां प्रश्न पूछना चाहते हैं,…( व्यवधान)

MR. SPEAKER: As a special case, I am allowing the Leader of the Opposition.

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया : क्या यह उचित नहीं है?

MR. SPEAKER: There is no such practice in the Lok Sabha.

श्री श्रीप्रकाश जायसवाल (कानपुर) : ऐसी परम्परा नहीं रही है तो इस तरह का नरसंहार भी कभी नहीं हुआ है।…( व्यवधान)

… (Interruptions)

THE MINISTER OF PARLIAMENTARY AFFAIRS AND MINISTER OF INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY (SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN): Sir, from the Government side, I would like to appeal to the hon. Members that let us not break the rules of the House. If the Leader of the Opposition wants to have a discussion on the subject … (Interruptions) then we can discuss it… (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA : There is no question of breaking the rules… (Interruptions)

श्री किरीट सोमैया (मुम्बई उत्तर पूर्व) : |ÉÉ<àÉ ÉÊàÉÉÊxɺ]® BÉEÉä iÉÉä +ÉÉ{ÉxÉä ºÉÖxÉ ÉÊãɪÉÉ, +ÉÉ{ÉBÉEÉä +ÉÉè® BÉDªÉÉ SÉÉÉÊcA* +ÉÉ{É ¤Éè~ VÉÉ<ªÉä*…( व्यवधान)

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया :हम बाधा नहीं पहुंचा रहे हैं, हम तीनों फोर्सेज का स्वागत करते हैं, पर सरकार की जो कमियां हैं, वहां जो उपेक्षा हुई है, उसके बारे में हम प्रश्न पूछना चाहते हैं।… (Interruptions)

श्री श्रीप्रकाश जायसवाल (कानपुर) : सरकार ने अपनी किसी जिम्मेदारी का निर्वाह नहीं किया है और हमें रूल सिखाया जा रहा है।…( व्यवधान)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: You give notice for a discussion… (Interruptions) We will discuss it… (Interruptions)

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया : वहां १०० लोग मौत के घाट उतरे हैं, आप किस तरह की बात कर रहे हैं।

MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that it is a serious matter.

… (Interruptions)

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया : जिस तरह से पार्लियामेंटरी एफेयर्स मनिस्टर कह रहे हैं…( व्यवधान)

´ÉcÉÆ àÉɺÉÚàÉ ãÉÉäMÉÉå BÉEÉÒ ciªÉÉ cÖ<Ç cé, =xÉBÉEÉÒ VÉÉxÉå MÉ<Ç cé +ÉÉè® BÉE~Éä®iÉÉ ªÉcÉÆ |ÉnÉ̶ÉiÉ BÉEÉÒ VÉÉ ®cÉÒ cè* ªÉc ºÉÉÉÊVÉ¶É cè, àÉÖZÉä <ºÉ {É® iÉÉVVÉÖ¤É cè*…( व्यवधान)

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You should also respect the rules of the House. You must understand that.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: As a special case I am allowing the Leader of the Opposition.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: You should also respect the rules of the House.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI KIRIT SOMAIYA (MUMBAI NORTH EAST): Sir, it was never allowed… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please understand that this time, as a special case I am allowing the Leader of the Opposition and not anybody else.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI VAIKO (SIVAKASI): There is no such convention… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Vaiko, please take your seat.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Since the Leader of the Opposition wants to seek a clarification, I have allowed her. Please take your seats now. I am only allowing the Leader of the Opposition and not anybody else.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, today is the last day of the week. I am appealing to you all to sit down.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: There are more than 40 notices for the `Zero Hour’ today.

__________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

We have to conduct zero hour after this. Please allow me to do that. Many Members want to raise important matters during zero hour. You should respect the rules of the House. I say this to both sides of the House. It is a very serious matter. You are always violating the procedure in the House.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: Please understand the situation. I am allowing the Leader of the Opposition as a special case. I am allowing her this time only. Nobody else will be allowed. Please understand.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: When we are dealing with such an important matter, it is unfortunate on the part of Members on both sides of the House to behave like this.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please understand. The hon. Prime Minister has to make a statement in the other House also.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please cooperate with the Chair. Please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: This shows how serious the Members are over these incidents. This is unfortunate.

…(Interruptions)

__________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

MR. SPEAKER: Normally, there is a tradition in the House that whenever the Leader of the Opposition stands up to speak, the Chair also gives him the permission to speak.

… (Interruptions)

SHRI PRAMOD MAHAJAN: Sir, I am not objecting to the Leader of the Opposition. Let her speak on any subject. But seeking clarification, after the Statement, cannot be made a rule in this House. We never allowed it. We cannot, everyday, take it as an exception. …(Interruptions) MR. SPEAKER: I am not allowing anybody to make any submission.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: This is not good.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: This is not proper.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: I am appealing you all to please take your seats.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri Kodikunnil Suresh, please go to your seat. Why are you coming like this? Why are you coming to the Well? I will take action against you. What is this?… (Interruptions)

SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU (SRIKAKULAM): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to make a submission.

MR. SPEAKER: No, I am not allowing you. Please take your seat.

… (Interruptions)

श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी : अध्यक्ष महोदय, हम एक महत्वपूर्ण और गंभीर घटना पर चर्चा कर रहे हैं।…( व्यवधान)

 

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing should go on record except the speech of the hon. Prime Minister.

(Interruptions)*

श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी : सदन में परम्परा है कि वक्तव्य के बाद स्पष्टीकरण नहीं पूछे जाते। उस परम्परा का आज और इस विषय से संबंध नहीं है।…( व्यवधान)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing should go on record except the speech of the hon. Prime Minister.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: Dr. Raghuvansh Prasad Singh, please take your seats. I have not allowed you to speak.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: This will not go on record.

(Interruptions)*

MR. SPEAKER: Now, if you behave like this, it will be very difficult for me to run the House. Otherwise, I will adjourn the House.

… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: It is very unfair on the part of both sides.

… (Interruptions)

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया : परम्परा यह भी है जो अध्यक्ष महोदय तय करते हैं, वही हाउस में होता है।…( व्यवधान)

MR. SPEAKER: Shri S. Jaipal Reddy, please take your seat.

… (Interruptions)

_______________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

 

 

 

MR. SPEAKER: Everybody talks about the rules and procedure. But nobody is following them. What is this?

… (Interruptions)

श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी : मेरा निवेदन यह है कि जो परम्परा है, वह कायम रहनी चाहिए। आज स्पीकर महोदय अपवाद कर रहे हैं, हमें कोई एतराज नहीं है। विरोधी दल की नेत्री बोलें। वह हमारे साथ गईं थीं। वह अपने अधिकार का उपयोग करें और उन्हें ध्यान से सुना जाये, ऐसा मेरा सबसे अनुरोध है।…( व्यवधान)

SHRIMATI SONIA GANDHI : Mr. Speaker, Sir, through you, I would thank the Prime Minister for giving me this opportunity.… (Interruptions)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA : He has not. It is the Speaker who is giving you the opportunity.… (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except the speech of the hon. Leader of the Opposition.

(Interruptions)*

SHRIMATI SONIA GANDHI : Sir, yesterday, in response to a question at the Press Conference in Srinagar after the Pahalgam visit, the Prime Minister said that there were no serious security lapses. In other words, the Prime Minister admits that indeed there were security lapses.

Therefore, we would like to know what steps does the Government intend to take to prevent such incidents taking place again.

We very strongly feel that responsibility must be fixed. It seems to us that the Government has taken leave of its conscience. But we have not taken leave of our conscience. Therefore, we demand a judicial inquiry into this tragic incident

__________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

so that accountability is fixed, Government’s lapses are brought to light and very strong measures are taken to ensure that such insensitive slackness does not occur again.

प्रधान मंत्री (श्री अटल बिहारी वाजपेयी) : अध्यक्ष महोदय, इतनी बड़ी घटना हुई है, इतनी संख्या में लोग मारे गए हैं, इसलिए यह प्रश्न उठना स्वाभाविक है कि क्या वहां पक्का इन्तजाम किया गया था। अगर इन्तजाम फुलप्रूफ होता – मैं जानता हूं कि ऐसे मामलों में फुलप्रूफ इन्तजाम करना बहुत मुश्किल होता है, क्योंकि वहां पर मेला था …( व्यवधान) अध्यक्ष महोदय, इसीलिए मैंने प्रैस कान्फ्रेंस में जो वक्तव्य दिया, उसमें मैंने यह नहीं कहा है, कोई लैप्स नहीं है, मैंने कहा है कि अभी तक कोई गम्भीर लैप्स की घटना सामने नहीं आई है। मैंने पता लगाया है, राज्य सरकार ने पहले से ही जांच का आदेश दे दिया है। सब तथ्य इकट्ठे किए जा रहे हैं। पहले एग्जिक्युटिव जांच होगी, उसके बाद अगर जरूरी समझा गया तो और भी जांच करा सकते हैं। इसको लेकर सदस्यों में मतभेद नहीं होना चाहिए। हमें क्या आपत्ति है ।

…( व्यवधान)

SHRI MADHAVRAO SCINDIA : What about the judicial inquiry? The Government has to respond to that. … (Interruptions)

MR. SPEAKER: Nothing will go on record except what Shri Radha Mohan Singh says.

(Interruptions) *

_________________________________________________________________

*Not Recorded.

श्री माधवराव सिंधिया (गुना) : महोदय, इतना गम्भीर मामला है, जिसमें इतने लोगों की जानें गई है और सरकार जुडशियल एन्क्वायरी करने के लिए तैयार नहीं है। इसके विरोध में हम सदन से वाक-आउट करते हैं। …( व्यवधान)

१२.३३ बजे

( iÉi{ɶSÉÉiÉ gÉÉÒàÉiÉÉÒ ºÉÉäÉÊxɪÉÉ MÉÉÆvÉÉÒ, gÉÉÒ àÉÉvÉ´É®É´É É˺ÉÉÊvɪÉÉ iÉlÉÉ BÉÖEU +ÉxªÉ àÉÉxÉxÉÉÒªÉ ºÉnºªÉ ºÉ£ÉɣɴÉxÉ ºÉä ¤ÉÉc® SÉãÉä MÉA )

…( व्यवधान)

bÉ. ®PÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ɺÉÉn É˺Éc (´Éè¶ÉÉãÉÉÒ) : महोदय, सरकार ने मृतकों और गम्भीर रूप से घायलों के लिए सहायता राशि घोषित नहीं की है। इसके विरोध में हम सदन से वाक-आउट करते हैं।…( व्यवधान)

१२.३३ बजे

( iÉi{ɶSÉÉiÉ bÉ. ®PÉÖ´ÉÆ¶É |ɺÉÉn É˺Éc iÉlÉÉ BÉÖEU +ÉxªÉ àÉÉxÉxÉÉÒªÉ ºÉnºªÉ ºÉ£ÉɣɴÉxÉ ºÉä ¤ÉÉc® SÉãÉä MÉA )


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